I think that your perspective on Williams is strange. He fits perfectly into the Hawthorn plan of four marking forwards, and he adds variety in that he's a medium small leading forward who's quick and good at ground level. He brings a lot to the table, and if fit I can't imagine him kicking less than 40 goals this year. Franklin is obviously the pick of the bunch. Boyle and Roughy bring different traits to the table, so you've got four very different marking forwards, making match-ups very difficult. Rioli has been brought into the club to play the crumbing forward, obviously he's an unknown quantity and should take a year or two to develop, but Hawthorn went near-top-4 last year without Williams and without a crumbing forward, so with Williams and Rioli back we could have a dynamite forward line this year.

I disagree there is too much hype. We had tall forwards who last year contributed 70, 40 & 30 goals respectively, and the oldest of the bunch - Boyle - was 22 last year. This year we have potentially two others who could add another 30-40 goals each. No other forward line has that goalscoring power amongst such a young group of players. Considering Thorp and Dowler are also tall, key position goalkicking forwards, both taken in the top 10 of their respective drafts, there's a lot of goalscoring power available to Hawthorn.

Williams - "I can't see a role for him"?? Open your eyes. What club would ditch a player who's twice kicked 60+ goals in a season.



Rocca's got a lot of years on Hawthorn's forwards, hence more body strength and experience, so of course he'll take more contested marks. He didn't when he was 20. He can't kick straight. He can't be relied upon under pressure. He's body's not what it used to be. He's slow. He's ageing.

Rusling has played how many games? Kicked how many goals? He's a long way off being as proven a player as Roughy. Rusling is also very different to Roughy, more like Boyle in that he's a quick, nimble tall forward who's best on the lead.

Cloke is a very good CHF, but Buddy does not just shade him - Buddy blots him out completely. Cloke's not the same calibre of player.

Collingwood have it over us in the small forward department by streets - I'll concede that.

See this is where you lose all credibility. Rocca has far greater accuracy than the three forwards you name.
Stats since 2004
Goals/Points/Goals per Point.
Rocca 189 115 1.64
Franklin 125 84 1.49
Boyle 33 28 1.18
Roughead 58 45 1.29


When you post blatant crap like this it is hard to take you seriously!
ps Boyle is 24.

And put in Cloke's! Should be good for a laugh...

C'mon jabbers, relevance of comparing Rocca's last 4 years to a few young blokes who hardly got a game in those first seasons is questionable too. As far as straight kicking goes, probably more relevant would be comparing Rocca to a few of the gun forwards who have played recently.

But it's interesting seeing the numbers...

lol

cop out!

Didn't see him write anything about Buddy being able to kick straight either.......

Rocca obviously had a good year for accuracy last year.

134 and 78 for Rocca 04 - 06

compares to

52 and 22 for Franklin in the same period... (using your stats)

Point is you can make stats say whatever you want, and that neither of them are what I would consider accurate kicks for goal.

Mark Williams: (who I would consider to be an accurate kick)

2006: 60 Goals 26 Behinds

Resorting to personal insults now I see.

Now, Mr Sharp,

I would like you to point out where it has been said by a Hawthorn supporter that "they (Franklin, Roughead and Boyle) compared favourably to Rocca when it comes to accuracy." - Directly quoted from above.

Or are you just twisting things????????????

Above question not answered.

Oh hang on..... its now your point is it?:

"Now back to my point Rocca's kicking over the last few years has been more accurate than Boyle, Franklin and Roughead (but not Williams!)"

NO HAWTHORN SUPPORTER HAS PROCLAIMED ANY OF OUR FORWARDS TO BE A MORE ACCURATE KICK THAN ROCCA.

edit: (bar williams)






Stop twisting things.

Fair enough. You really shouldn't say people have said things, when in fact they haven't, to support your arguments. It is fraudulent (I wanted to use a big word too).

I didn't state Rocca can't kick. He is an awesome kick, especially from outside 50m - as is Buddy. He struggles from 10-30m out, as does Buddy. Rocca struggles to kick straight in pressure moments. Buddy does not suffer from this same trait, however.

I never suggested Rocca's kicking wouldn't stand up well compared to Buddy and Roughy. Your theory of "inferential comprehension" is flawed. You inferred I thought Buddy and Roughy were better kicks at goal. I don't think that at all. Obviously Williams is better than all of them.

You also stated:


You weren't referring to Williams. I was talking openly about him. I had this to say after you stated that you couldn't see a role for Williams in our forward line:


Don't exclude Williams from the conversation on my account. I have stated clearly in this thread I believe he is an integral part of our current forward set up, and hence is an integral part of a Hawthorn v Collingwood comparison.

Buddy is the most dynamic goalkicker of the players in consideration, Williams is the most accurate, Rocca has had the most prolific career, Buddy and Williams have had the most prolific recent seasons. Roughead, Boyle, Cloke and Rusling still have a lot left to prove. To me, that reads that Hawthorn's forward set-up more potent overall.

Interestingly you discounted Williams on my account - in spite of the fact I was advocating for him being a crucial part of our forward line - yet you have not provided any evidence to suggest Rusling stacks up in any sense in this argument. Why is that?

Here's some interesting stats for you. Firstly, here are the players in question: Rocca, Cloke, Rusling, Fraser, Didak, Davis and Thomas for the Pies; Franklin, Williams, Roughead and Boyle for the Hawks.

Here's a list of seasons each player has kicked 30+ goals. Obviously Rocca is overly represented due to length of career, yet his best season doesn't match Williams' or Buddy's best years.

Most goals in a single season
73 - Franklin - 2007
63 - Williams - 2005
60 - Williams - 2006
55 - Rocca - 2006
54 - Rocca - 2007
45 - Rocca - 2003
42 - Rocca - 2001
41 - Didak - 2006
40 - Roughead - 2007
39 - Cloke - 2007
37 - Fraser - 2002
36 - Didak - 2003
34 - Rocca - 1997
33 - Williams - 2004
33 - Rocca - 2000
32 - Boyle - 2007
31 - Franklin - 2006
31 - Davis - 2007
31 - Davis - 2002
30 - Rocca - 1999
(Rusling doesn't make list. Best season haul was 10 in 2007)
(Thomas doesn't make list. Best season haul was 19 in 2007)


Here's an interesting snapshot of how many goals per game each player has achieved across their career. Interesting comparison, gives a fair indication of which side has more goalscoring firepower.

Career goals per game average
2.4 - Williams
2.3 - Franklin
1.7 - Rocca
1.4 - Didak
1.3 - Boyle
1.2 - Davis
1.1 - Rusling
1.0 - Roughead
1.0 - Cloke
0.8 - Fraser
0.7 - Thomas


Back to the accuracy question. No doubt Didak is the best, but clearly in terms of tall forwards, Collingwood are more deficient in terms of accuracy.

Career goalkicking accuracy
64.2 - Didak
62.5 - Williams
60.9 - Franklin
60.7 - Davis
59.31 - Rocca
55.5 - Roughead
53.8 - Boyle
53.4 - Thomas
52.4 - Fraser
51.1 - Rusling
45.5 - Cloke

Interesting reading...not sure how you figured Rocca was more accurate than Franklin. Anyway...


(source: http://www.footywire.com/)