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Master Shake wrote:I've endured years of suffering and disappointment with the Hawks since the golden 80s and i'm not about to get ahead of myself now. We played well and deserved to win by 100points, but Melbourne were woeful. Hawthorn will match it with all the victorian teams without a doubt, collingwood, st kilda and geelong all being teams highly regarded for the flag this year which we did account for last season. The problem for Hawthorn lies in their interstate form (or lack thereof); apart from Port last year we struggled interstate. That, and when teams like the Kangeroos or Adelaide stem our flow is what we need to learn from. Hawthorn will only be legitimate challengers for the flag if Clarkson can adopt a more flexible game plan if and when plan a doesnt succeed, and if we can start winning interstate.
Despite what everyone is saying, Freo at Subi will be a decent litmus test for Hawthorns chance at the flag. In reality, this is a game we should win Good post.
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:God I love Collingwood supporters.
From this thread I have learned:
Leon Davis is as good as Lance Franklin
Dale Thomas is as good, or is going to be as good as Garry Ablett
Ben Reid is going to be a better forward than Mitch Thorp because he was drafted at number 8 (what number did Thorp go at again??)
I think we have one of the best forward lines in the comp. Especially now with Rioli and Stokes. (Which team has a better forward line?)
 Yet you think you have the best forward line now because you have Rioli and Stokes-You're just as bad!!!!
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jabbers64 wrote:
This has the potential to get silly, but I can't let that post pass
Rocca/Cloke & Fraser- no match for Buddy, Roughy, & Boyle?- Roughead yet to develop any consistency, Boyle just goes. Fraser was injured all last year and people forget he was in Pies best couple in both GF appearnaces. Big game player who is a better forward.
Small Forwards easily Collingwoods way Didak, Davis, Thomas & Medhurst miles ahead of Rioli, Williams and Stokes.
Hodge (Great), Bateman(Great), , Mitchell(Great), , Sewell (OK), Lewis(OK), Crawford(past it), Young(OK), Ladson(Just goes), Dew(You Are Kidding), Ellis(unfulfilled)
Pendlebury, Thomas, Clarke, Burns, Holland, Didak, Davis, O'Bree almost on par there.
Our backline is clearly better with Hawthorn's undersized and susceptible to power forwards.
Collingwood is younger and went further last year.
I agree Fraser is better forward than Ruck, but he is not as good a forward as Boyle, nor is he as good a ruckman as Campbell. Hawthorn's forward trio was more effective in 2007 (kicked more goals), and considering their ages, have much more improvement in them than Collingwood's. Collingwood have a better fleet of small forwards, I agree, but none of them have kicked anywhere near as many goals in a season as Williams (twice 60 goals in a season), and you've omitted Osborne from our small forward group. Collingwood's defence is not clearly superior. If the Pies line up on St Kilda, for example, who'll take Riewoldt, Gehrig and Koschitzke, who'll take Milne, and who'll provide the defensive dash? Hawthorn would probably place Croad on Gehrig, Gilham on Riewoldt, and Birchall on Koschitzke. Brown would take Milne. Ladson and Guerra would provide the defensive dash, and Birchall would run off Koschitzke. It's not ideal, but with the high work rate of our midfield getting back to fill space, it works. How does Collingwood counter such a forward line without Clement? Presti's not as effective as Croad. Your tall defenders are no better than ours, and you can't generate more run from the back half than us. Why would you rate your defence as "clearly better"? Who takes the "power forwards"? Your midfield is reasonable, but all Pies fans over-rate their midfield. Pies have a workmanlike midfield that get a job done. They are simply not in Hawthorn's class. BTW, did you see Dew on Sunday. He was outstanding - better than I expected. Collingwood had a fine 2007, but I simply don't believe that their youngsters have the potential of Hawthorn's youngsters, nor do I believe that Collingwood has the blend of experience & dynamite in the middle to match Hodge, Mitchell, Crawford, Lewis, Sewell, Bateman & Young. Pendlebury is a year ahead of Ellis, Thomas is a year ahead of Ellis, Clarke has had one reasonable season, Burns is not as effective as Crawf, Holland is moderate, Didak is one I'll concede (a fine player), Davis is moderate, O'Bree is a step below moderate. Nowhere near being on par there.
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jabbers64 wrote: Yet you think you have the best forward line now because you have Rioli and Stokes-You're just as bad!!!! I would advise you to read again... Now, where did I say that Hawthorn has the best forward line in the comp? I believe I said 'one' of the best. Reason I say that is because crumbing forwards are what we were lacking last year. Stokes and Rioli are exactly the type of players that we need.
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The Raven wrote:
I agree Fraser is better forward than Ruck, but he is not as good a forward as Boyle, nor is he as good a ruckman as Campbell. Hawthorn's forward trio was more effective in 2007 (kicked more goals), and considering their ages, have much more improvement in them than Collingwood's.
Collingwood have a better fleet of small forwards, I agree, but none of them have kicked anywhere near as many goals in a season as Williams (twice 60 goals in a season), and you've omitted Osborne from our small forward group.
Collingwood's defence is not clearly superior. If the Pies line up on St Kilda, for example, who'll take Riewoldt, Gehrig and Koschitzke, who'll take Milne, and who'll provide the defensive dash?
Hawthorn would probably place Croad on Gehrig, Gilham on Riewoldt, and Birchall on Koschitzke. Brown would take Milne. Ladson and Guerra would provide the defensive dash, and Birchall would run off Koschitzke. It's not ideal, but with the high work rate of our midfield getting back to fill space, it works. How does Collingwood counter such a forward line without Clement? Presti's not as effective as Croad. Your tall defenders are no better than ours, and you can't generate more run from the back half than us. Why would you rate your defence as "clearly better"? Who takes the "power forwards"?
Your midfield is reasonable, but all Pies fans over-rate their midfield. Pies have a workmanlike midfield that get a job done. They are simply not in Hawthorn's class. BTW, did you see Dew on Sunday. He was outstanding - better than I expected.
Collingwood had a fine 2007, but I simply don't believe that their youngsters have the potential of Hawthorn's youngsters, nor do I believe that Collingwood has the blend of experience & dynamite in the middle to match Hodge, Mitchell, Crawford, Lewis, Sewell, Bateman & Young.
Pendlebury is a year ahead of Ellis, Thomas is a year ahead of Ellis, Clarke has had one reasonable season, Burns is not as effective as Crawf, Holland is moderate, Didak is one I'll concede (a fine player), Davis is moderate, O'Bree is a step below moderate. Nowhere near being on par there.
They are Collingwood supporters. I don't know that it is possible to reason with them.
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:God I love Collingwood supporters. From this thread I have learned: Leon Davis is as good as Lance Franklin Dale Thomas is as good, or is going to be as good as Garry Ablett Ben Reid is going to be a better forward than Mitch Thorp because he was drafted at number 8 (what number did Thorp go at again??)  Yes I'm sure all Collingwood supporters all go by those points aswell....
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:
They are Collingwood supporters. I don't know that it is possible to reason with them.
Pot.Kettle.Black I will take that part out that was here!
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tc wrote:
Yes I'm sure all Collingwood supporters all go by those points aswell....
No offence intended towards you tc. You are one of the few Collingwood supporters that makes sense.
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:
They are Collingwood supporters. I don't know that it is possible to reason with them.
I guess they see things in black and white. I see things in brown and gold - hahahaha.
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The Raven wrote:
I agree Fraser is better forward than Ruck, but he is not as good a forward as Boyle, nor is he as good a ruckman as Campbell. Hawthorn's forward trio was more effective in 2007 (kicked more goals), and considering their ages, have much more improvement in them than Collingwood's.
Collingwood have a better fleet of small forwards, I agree, but none of them have kicked anywhere near as many goals in a season as Williams (twice 60 goals in a season), and you've omitted Osborne from our small forward group.
Collingwood's defence is not clearly superior. If the Pies line up on St Kilda, for example, who'll take Riewoldt (O'Brien/Goldsack)), Gehrig (Wakelin/Brown)and Koschitzke (Brown/O'Brien/Goldsack/Maxwell), who'll take Milne (H.Shaw/O'Brien), and who'll provide the defensive dash?(Goldsack/H.Shaw/O'Brien/R Shaw and whoever is on Milne)
Hawthorn would probably place Croad on Gehrig, Gilham on Riewoldt, and Birchall on Koschitzke. Brown would take Milne. Ladson and Guerra would provide the defensive dash, and Birchall would run off Koschitzke. It's not ideal, but with the high work rate of our midfield getting back to fill space, it works. How does Collingwood counter such a forward line without Clement? Presti's not as effective as Croad. Your tall defenders are no better than ours, and you can't generate more run from the back half than us. Why would you rate your defence as "clearly better"? Who takes the "power forwards"?
Your midfield is reasonable, but all Pies fans over-rate their midfield. Pies have a workmanlike midfield that get a job done. They are simply not in Hawthorn's class. BTW, did you see Dew on Sunday. He was outstanding - better than I expected.
Collingwood had a fine 2007, but I simply don't believe that their youngsters have the potential of Hawthorn's youngsters, nor do I believe that Collingwood has the blend of experience & dynamite in the middle to match Hodge, Mitchell, Crawford, Lewis, Sewell, Bateman & Young.
Pendlebury is a year ahead of Ellis , Thomas is a year ahead of Ellis, Clarke has had one reasonable season (he has been playing football for 12 months!! His upsize is bigger than anyones!), Burns is not as effective as Crawf, Holland is moderate, Didak is one I'll concede (a fine player), Davis is moderate, O'Bree is a step below moderate. Nowhere near being on par there.
Some answers above: Out of Collingwoods backline players the following were in the elite over 20m testing: Goldsack, R.Shaw , H. Shaw, O'Brien and Brown. Thet provide enormous run from defence. This is all subjective and our own bias is riddled through all these posts. Let's just wait and see and agree both sides have talented youngsters. Otherwise we'll both end up hitting our heads against respective brick walls of stubbornness.
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:
No offence intended towards you tc. You are one of the few Collingwood supporters that makes sense.
Nah mate I love footy banter, I just chuckle away, cause let's be honest, it's round1, and here are passionate and one eyed supporters trying to out-do each other on who has the better forward/midfield line, all based on what's on paper. Both teams have what I consider to be the better lists with depth and experience. Both have young, talented and even untapped talent (both have players at VFL level that could easily slot into the starting 22), but it all counts for squat if your team can't put it all together one day, with the 22 they've got. Hawthorn and Collingwood can both beat each other one any given day, just depends who clicks on the day. Keep up the banter though! Makes for at least a little decent reading, just everyone keep your posts in perspective!
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Jan Venegoor of Centerlink wrote:
Good post.
I agree. Hawthorn have a lot to prove. The game against Freo on the rebound at Subi will be a massive test for us. If we come back to earth with a thud, we must reassess, but if we overcome that we have every reason to remain ultra-positive.
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:
I would advise you to read again... Now, where did I say that Hawthorn has the best forward line in the comp?
I believe I said 'one' of the best.
Reason I say that is because crumbing forwards are what we were lacking last year. Stokes and Rioli are exactly the type of players that we need.
THe point I was making was that they are both unproved players and you were takling the mickey out of another post for big statements. With regards to Thomas and Ablett jnr at the same time in their careers Thomas would be more advanced. Statistics would back this up. Whether he continues to improve at the same rate is another point.
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jabbers64 wrote:
THe point I was making was that they are both unproved players and you were takling the mickey out of another post for big statements.
With regards to Thomas and Ablett jnr at the same time in their careers Thomas would be more advanced. Statistics would back this up. Whether he continues to improve at the same rate is another point.
So you dont think Hawthorns forward line is one of the best in the comp?
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:
So you dont think Hawthorns forward line is one of the best in the comp?
I think they lack crumbing forwards and I'm not convinced about Boyle and Roughhead. Time will tell.
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HAWKS 2009 wrote:
So you dont think Hawthorns forward line is one of the best in the comp?
They are class, no doubt. But Collingwoods is a class above that.
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tc wrote:Ok let's get things clear here, seem to be some really simple people involved in this thread, of the Hawthorn breed.
Good stuff hawthorn supporters! (and for point of reference, Hawthorn at full strength beat a Collingwood missing key players last year, and only just got over the line. I'm not arguing either team to be better/worse at this point in time, I just find this whole thread a bit of a.... contradiction....) This is the Hawthorn bandwagon thread. I like the way you had to point out that it was the Hawks breed that are simple. If you hadn't then everyone would have assumed it was collingwood supporters you were talking about. I would like to be more complicated but I will leave that to the people who like to argue without an arguemnet.
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Jan Venegoor of Centerlink wrote:
They are class, no doubt. But Collingwoods is a class above that.
Well there you go, the world in black and white. Just about the only person on the planet who actually believes Collingwood have a better forward line than Hawthorn. Bizarre.
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Bizzaro wrote:
This is the Hawthorn bandwagon thread.
I like the way you had to point out that it was the Hawks breed that are simple. If you hadn't then everyone would have assumed it was collingwood supporters you were talking about.
I would like to be more complicated but I will leave that to the people who like to argue without an arguemnet.
Ok, I was merely pointing out the Hawthorn supporters wrongs because let's be honest, a lot of Collingwood supporters are blatent for everyone to see, yet a few Hawthorn supporters were getting on there backs, yet there own kind was making some back. Was just pointing it out buddy, way too get offended that someone talked back to Hawthorn supporters!
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The Raven wrote:
Well there you go, the world in black and white. Just about the only person on the planet who actually believes Collingwood have a better forward line than Hawthorn. Bizarre.
There are others http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23154229-11088,00.htmlHawthorn have one gun forward (Franklin), 1 potentially good power forward (Roughead), no proven crumbing forwards and the jury is out on Boyle. THey have a sensational midfield but there is far too much hype over their forward line. I left out Williams because I can't see a role for him if they are going to play the other three talls. He does not play as a small crumbing forward but as a lead up key option. I think Roughead may have to go back if they are to play Williams forward. Now let's look at Collingwood: Rocca gets a lot of criticism but still takes the more contested marks than any Hawthorn player. He has to be rated ahead of Boyle. Rusling averaged more goals per game than Roughead playing out of full forward. Cloke won the best and fairest and whilst not as flamboyant as Franklin is still a very consistent hit up forward. FRanklin obviously shades him. But in the small forwards Didak, Davis and Thomas Collingwood clearly leads Hawthorn. I don't think this argument is as clear cut as you make out.
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