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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 6/8/2007 Posts: 1,549 Location: Canberra
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inefekt wrote:
Silence? Just because I don't live my life in front of a pc doesn't mean I'm taking a step back from a bit of lively debate! I just love it when people assume that most posters on these forums are 16 year olds. I've been following Norman since the early to mid 80's. And you? The fact is Norman proved to the world that he still has the talent, skill and game to match it with the best. Over three days he proved that at 53 he was as good a golfer as anyone else in the field. He was hitting his drives over 300 yds, putting well and his course management was impeccable. I don't buy these excuses about being so old, about hardly playing golf all year blah blah blah, over three days he proved he didn't need all that tournament play and practice, his natural talent for the game overcame all of that. There was absolutely no reason why he couldn't of shot another 70 in the final round. Simple fact is he again let the pressure get to him, call it what you want it doesnt matter, all that history will show is that he again let a final round lead slip. If he had the mental toughness of Tiger he would of won so many more majors than he ended up with but unfortunately for him he's the anti-Tiger in that regard. Also don't tell me that his 77 was 'the norm' for the field yesterday, out of the top 50 players only 5 scored 77 or worse, his score was in the bottom 10 percent. That's not the norm. Unfortunately Greg is not the only Aussie choker, all our guys seem to wither and die when holding a 3rd round lead. Flanagan and Coles shared the third round lead in the PGA Tour event held in Milwaukee at the same time as The Open. Both faded to finish out of the top ten.
You have a crack at me because I have never been to the Golf forum before. I made the assupmtion that you were 16 because of your comments and for no other reason. I would have thought that someone who had been watching Norman since the mid 80's would have been able to add a little more substance to the conversation that is all.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 5/21/2004 Posts: 476
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Ice wrote:
You have a crack at me because I have never been to the Golf forum before. I made the assupmtion that you were 16 because of your comments and for no other reason. I would have thought that someone who had been watching Norman since the mid 80's would have been able to add a little more substance to the conversation that is all.
Substance? Every one of my comments was perfectly reasoned and statistically accurate. It's people's assumption of why those events unfolded that is being debated. You obviously have no way of arguing a point other than to put the other person down with immature name calling, much like powerfan. Why don't you just accept that not everyone thinks of Norman like you do? I happen to like the guy and everything he has done for golf but I'm simply pointing out his weakness is his mental toughness, or lack thereof. I think most experts would agree with me.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 5/21/2004 Posts: 476
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powerfan wrote:Because he did it for 3 days there is no reason he cant do it for four? Go talk about netball or stamp collecting. Because a football team outscore the opposition by 5 goals at 1/4 time they should always win by 20 goals? Because you produce the fastest lap you should produce the fastest lap or equivalent on every lap there after? It doesn't work like that. You have other factors that play a major role in the outcome of any event. Weather, fatigue, the opposition, your mindset, their mindset, adrenalin, the list is long and endless. How many times has Norman been in a position to win a major in the last 5 years? Natural talent will only get you so far in any sport. The fulltime tournament play, the grind, the competing, will help you mentally prepare. Fatigue is not just of the body but also the mind. You would presume that to be in that position (leader) you have to concentrate more than the guys at the tail end of the field. History will and has recorded Norman as a champion who should have won a few more majors but for guys pulling out the shot of the year out of their @rseholes. W@nkers like urself can't wait to get on here and slag the guy when he has done more for the game than anyone in its history. (i better put in Australia u might get excited and want to attack that comment) His performances, over the duration of his career are outstanding and all that the British Open showed was that the guys of today are basically as good as they are because of the equipment, not because of their skill level. Playing in the wind sorts out the men from the boys and Norman gave the young people a glimpse of his ability this weekend. Unfortunately he came up short. I'd say that was more to do with his part time dedication to the game than his lack of ability to close out a win. To highlight his lack of play, 646th in the world........think of the world #646 tennis player taking on Nadal, Djokovic, even our "has been" Lleyton Hewitt. And you have the audacity to say he choked. Go read what the winner said about Norman, When your peers talk about you in this manner then I cant imagine winning being as important to you (as a 53 yo part time golfer) as it seems to be for "experts" sitting in front of their TV. And that is not to say that he doesn't care he didnt win, I'm sure he did/does, but Im also guessing it would have been nothing more than a bonus. http://sportal.com.au/golf-news-display/harrington-hails-storming-norman-528351 last thing b4 u go read the link, his final round 77; Many golfers win tournaments without shooting the best round of the day. Many golfers finish with a top 10 finish after shooting a poor round. Is that because many times the conditions are better in the AM while the leaders tee off in the PM ???????? Really is an ignorant comment and shows a lack of understanding about the game and yet you have been watching it for 20 years, allegedly. This is golf, it's a freakin walk in the park for anyone that's even half fit. If you think otherwise then you obviously struggle to walk to your fridge to pull out another beer and slice of cold pizza without running out of breath! You've completely missed the point of my post, perhaps I should get out the crayons and draw you a picture? In case it wasn't clear I was complimentary of his play, his driving was awesome, short game was great and I thought it was great he could still match it with these guys at his age though he's not exactly breaking new ground here, if you remember Bob Charles managed a top 25 finish in a tournament in NZ recently.......at the age of 70 odd! Golf is one of those rare sports where you are able to still compete into your twilight years so really using age as an excuse is pretty lame. It's a fallacy that he hasn't played a lot of tournament golf this year, in fact he's played in five tournaments in the last three months. http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/tournaments/I am a fan of Norman, believe it or not. Also why are you linking to an article where the author seemingly shares my view about Norman's inability to hold onto third round leads: "In the end he faltered as he has done so often in his career" Strange move indeed. Oh and try and ease up on the immature name calling........it's not very becoming.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 9/8/2007 Posts: 506 Location: adelaide
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inefekt wrote:This is golf, it's a freakin walk in the park for anyone that's even half fit. If you think otherwise then you obviously struggle to walk to your fridge to pull out another beer and slice of cold pizza without running out of breath! You've completely missed the point of my post, perhaps I should get out the crayons and draw you a picture? In case it wasn't clear I was complimentary of his play, his driving was awesome, short game was great and I thought it was great he could still match it with these guys at his age though he's not exactly breaking new ground here, if you remember Bob Charles managed a top 25 finish in a tournament in NZ recently.......at the age of 70 odd! Golf is one of those rare sports where you are able to still compete into your twilight years so really using age as an excuse is pretty lame. It's a fallacy that he hasn't played a lot of tournament golf this year, in fact he's played in five tournaments in the last three months. http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/tournaments/I am a fan of Norman, believe it or not. Also why are you linking to an article where the author seemingly shares my view about Norman's inability to hold onto third round leads: "In the end he faltered as he has done so often in his career" Strange move indeed.Oh and try and ease up on the immature name calling........it's not very becoming. I made a fair few points in my post and the best you could come up with was 1. statistics - which i can rearrange to suit myslef as i will do shortly and 2. the article i linked. Thats the best you could come up with? "This is golf, it's a freakin walk in the park" - I said, "The fulltime tournament play, the grind, the competing, will help you mentally prepare. Fatigue is not just of the body but also the mind." 1-0 muddy "in fact he's played in five tournaments in the last three months" - Your link to the stats showed me - he has played 8 tournaments in three years. 2-0 muddy "Also why are you linking to an article where the author seemingly shares my view ......." - If you actually read my post you would have noticed the words, Go read what the winner said about Norman, I'm guessing it's safe to presume the winner is not the author. 3-0 muddy You are fighting out of your weight division.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 7/21/2008 Posts: 154 Location: Qld
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A lot of people are quick to cut Norman down by calling him a choker......fine! Last I remember was that he probably choked once and the other losses were the result of pure arse-making excrement
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 11/29/2005 Posts: 551 Location: Brissy
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granted norman did give up a lead but i think this one will not be remember for him doing that but rather him alomst winning a major at 53 years old as a part time golfer and 22 years after he won his first. i must say it certainly made alot more people take interest in the tounament with the main drawcard tiger woods not playing.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 5/21/2004 Posts: 476
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powerfan wrote:
I made a fair few points in my post and the best you could come up with was 1. statistics - which i can rearrange to suit myslef as i will do shortly and 2. the article i linked.
Thats the best you could come up with?
"This is golf, it's a freakin walk in the park" - I said, "The fulltime tournament play, the grind, the competing, will help you mentally prepare. Fatigue is not just of the body but also the mind."
1-0 muddy
"in fact he's played in five tournaments in the last three months" - Your link to the stats showed me - he has played 8 tournaments in three years.
2-0 muddy
"Also why are you linking to an article where the author seemingly shares my view ......." - If you actually read my post you would have noticed the words, Go read what the winner said about Norman, I'm guessing it's safe to presume the winner is not the author.
3-0 muddy
You are fighting out of your weight division.
Two people who think they're absolutely right about a subject cannot have a meaningful debate, it's completely pointless and we could go on arguing each other's points forever and a day. I neither have the time nor the inclination to continue this............. And I can only imagine what your 'weight division' is.................
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 6/8/2007 Posts: 1,549 Location: Canberra
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inefekt wrote:
Substance? Every one of my comments was perfectly reasoned and statistically accurate. It's people's assumption of why those events unfolded that is being debated. You obviously have no way of arguing a point other than to put the other person down with immature name calling, much like powerfan. Why don't you just accept that not everyone thinks of Norman like you do? I happen to like the guy and everything he has done for golf but I'm simply pointing out his weakness is his mental toughness, or lack thereof. I think most experts would agree with me.
Let me clarify then, i don't think this was a choke and i think people who say it was a choke don't understand the term in a sporting sense. Is mental toughness an issue for the Shark, i'd say so and if i put you down then i apologise. Though all i said was muppets saying he choked mainly referring to the second post in the thread were he was called a choking donkey, then you started the personal stuff calling me a *****er for having the hide to have an opinion in a forum i have never been to, then you say i have to accept that not everyone thinks like me. That all strikes me as a little hypocritical.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 9/8/2007 Posts: 506 Location: adelaide
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inefekt wrote:
And I can only imagine what your 'weight division' is.................
my weight division? 5'10" 78Kgs im not a little or large fatty as u thought, sorry.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 7/22/2005 Posts: 405 Location: Sydney
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Norman had a 75 (+4) in the first round of the Seniors today. Thats 7 behind the leaders.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 12/4/2004 Posts: 606 Location: Bracknell, England
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inefekt wrote:
Silence? Just because I don't live my life in front of a pc doesn't mean I'm taking a step back from a bit of lively debate! I just love it when people assume that most posters on these forums are 16 year olds. I've been following Norman since the early to mid 80's. And you? The fact is Norman proved to the world that he still has the talent, skill and game to match it with the best. Over three days he proved that at 53 he was as good a golfer as anyone else in the field. He was hitting his drives over 300 yds, putting well and his course management was impeccable. I don't buy these excuses about being so old, about hardly playing golf all year blah blah blah, over three days he proved he didn't need all that tournament play and practice, his natural talent for the game overcame all of that. There was absolutely no reason why he couldn't of shot another 70 in the final round. Simple fact is he again let the pressure get to him, call it what you want it doesnt matter, all that history will show is that he again let a final round lead slip. If he had the mental toughness of Tiger he would of won so many more majors than he ended up with but unfortunately for him he's the anti-Tiger in that regard. Also don't tell me that his 77 was 'the norm' for the field yesterday, out of the top 50 players only 5 scored 77 or worse, his score was in the bottom 10 percent. That's not the norm. Unfortunately Greg is not the only Aussie choker, all our guys seem to wither and die when holding a 3rd round lead. Flanagan and Coles shared the third round lead in the PGA Tour event held in Milwaukee at the same time as The Open. Both faded to finish out of the top ten.
This is the most accurate and truest account of what happened to poor old grandfather choker Norman.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 12/4/2004 Posts: 606 Location: Bracknell, England
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powerfan wrote:Because he did it for 3 days there is no reason he cant do it for four? Go talk about netball or stamp collecting. Because a football team outscore the opposition by 5 goals at 1/4 time they should always win by 20 goals? Because you produce the fastest lap you should produce the fastest lap or equivalent on every lap there after? It doesn't work like that. You have other factors that play a major role in the outcome of any event. Weather, fatigue, the opposition, your mindset, their mindset, adrenalin, the list is long and endless. How many times has Norman been in a position to win a major in the last 5 years? Natural talent will only get you so far in any sport. The fulltime tournament play, the grind, the competing, will help you mentally prepare. Fatigue is not just of the body but also the mind. You would presume that to be in that position (leader) you have to concentrate more than the guys at the tail end of the field. History will and has recorded Norman as a champion who should have won a few more majors but for guys pulling out the shot of the year out of their @rseholes. W@nkers like urself can't wait to get on here and slag the guy when he has done more for the game than anyone in its history. (i better put in Australia u might get excited and want to attack that comment) His performances, over the duration of his career are outstanding and all that the British Open showed was that the guys of today are basically as good as they are because of the equipment, not because of their skill level. Playing in the wind sorts out the men from the boys and Norman gave the young people a glimpse of his ability this weekend. Unfortunately he came up short. I'd say that was more to do with his part time dedication to the game than his lack of ability to close out a win. To highlight his lack of play, 646th in the world........think of the world #646 tennis player taking on Nadal, Djokovic, even our "has been" Lleyton Hewitt. And you have the audacity to say he choked. Go read what the winner said about Norman, When your peers talk about you in this manner then I cant imagine winning being as important to you (as a 53 yo part time golfer) as it seems to be for "experts" sitting in front of their TV. And that is not to say that he doesn't care he didnt win, I'm sure he did/does, but Im also guessing it would have been nothing more than a bonus. http://sportal.com.au/golf-news-display/harrington-hails-storming-norman-528351 last thing b4 u go read the link, his final round 77; Many golfers win tournaments without shooting the best round of the day. Many golfers finish with a top 10 finish after shooting a poor round. Is that because many times the conditions are better in the AM while the leaders tee off in the PM ???????? Really is an ignorant comment and shows a lack of understanding about the game and yet you have been watching it for 20 years, allegedly. This is the biggest bag of bo11ox i've ever read.
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Rank: Member Groups: Administration
Joined: 5/18/2004 Posts: -8 Location: Melbourne
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Man he played like he did when he was a little pup.. Good for Norman
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 2/13/2008 Posts: 1,260 Location: Aus
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Agree with powerfan...definitely choked.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 7/27/2008 Posts: 216 Location: UK
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Regarding Van de Velde. If people are talking about the time he hit the ball into the water, that wasn't exactly a choke, it was a single bad decision. He should have taken a drop, or whatever they call it (I don't play golf!), but foolishly chose to take off his shoes and socks, paddle in the stream, and try to hack the ball from there. By the way, it's not the "British Open", it's simply "The Open." Before you say that's silly nationalism, let me point out that we don't call The Masters the US Masters. What really peed me off about the coverage of the Open was all the media gush about how Greg was inspired by Chrissie, and how romantic it was. Norman's wife of umpteen years, whom he dumped, might take a different view. Betrayal is not particularly romantic.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 10/27/2007 Posts: 235
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Turn it up ya goose!! Ol' Vanders had a mental lapse that turned into a physical failure. Be it one round, one hole, one shot....mental or physical, he choked on the big one "Linda Lovelace style". As did Sharkey on the last hole of the playoff at Troon in The '89 Open....as did Monty and Phat Phil on the 72nd hole in the 2006 US Open.....Monty stuffed his approach, Phil his drive, both poor mental decisions that resulted in chokes of the highest order.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 7/27/2008 Posts: 216 Location: UK
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No! Choking is when you try to do a normal shot (in golf or tennis or whatever) and muff it. It's what Norman did on that famous occasion when he squandered a big lead (6 shots, was it?) and couldn't putt a ball into a hole from 18 inches. That's choking. Also known as the Yips.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 10/27/2007 Posts: 235
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Well my not so learned friend.....Vanders actually choked on more than one occassion on the 18th. 1. His drive into the rough (ok, a slight choke...he was still lying ok in the rough apparently). 2. 2nd shot....a simple (normal!?) long iron shot to the green....he MUFFS a 2 iron that well high wide and handsome into the grandstand, bounced back and finished short of the water. 3. 3rd shot....a MUFFED wedge that should have made the green but fell well short and in the drink. And no, he didn't hit from the water.....he thought about it then decided to take a drop. 4. 5th shot....a simple wedge onto the green and he MUFFED it into the bunker. Granted he got up and down for a 7 and made the playoff but he would have been a broken man by then after choking 3 TIMES on the 72nd hole. So that's at least 3 chokes I can count....in 1 hole no less. That's still a few less than Sharkey though....you could probably count a dozen chokes in his last round in the '96 Masters. D
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Rank: Member Groups: Member
Joined: 9/10/2008 Posts: 42 Location: QLD
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I wonder how many of you clowns who think Norman choked actually play comp golf because your understanding of the game and conditions he was playing in is very limited. If you are bagging 1 of the most successful golfers of all time who held the no.1 spot longer then anyone (except tiger) you are a tool. Good on ya Greg for getting out there and showing you can still compete with the best in the world.
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Rank: Sports Guru Groups: Member
Joined: 1/7/2008 Posts: 717 Location: Canberra
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Reebee wrote:I wonder how many of you clowns who think Norman choked actually play comp golf because your understanding of the game and conditions he was playing in is very limited. If you are bagging 1 of the most successful golfers of all time who held the no.1 spot longer then anyone (except tiger) you are a tool. Good on ya Greg for getting out there and showing you can still compete with the best in the world. Got it
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